S4, Ep 1: The Ethics of Discomfort: Christina García on Ecofeminism, Friendship, and Creative "Sorcery"

This episode of What IFF? we had a conversation with the new director of WGS, Dr. Christina García (she/her). We explore how feminist and queer theory can reshape the way we think about bodies, environments, community, and even creativity itself. In addition, Dr. García discusses her leadership approach, which centers on listening, learning, and supporting a program rooted in collaborative feminist practice.

Transcript

00;00;01;21 - 00;00;07;05
Unknown
Around.

00;00;07;07 - 00;00;37;06
Bek
Hello and welcome to What If at the College of Charleston. This is a podcast where together we imagine intersectional feminist futures by centering the work of local activists here in our very own college community. I'm your host, Beck Myers, and he's they them pronouns. In today's episode, I'm here with Christina Garcia, who is an associate professor at the Department of Hispanic Studies and Affiliate Faculty in African-American studies, Women's and Gender Studies, and Latin American and Caribbean Studies programs at the College of Charleston.

00;00;37;08 - 00;01;05;20
Bek
Her research looks at both literary and visual works from the Hispanic film Caribbean, and draws from eco feminist, post-human isms and critical race studies. She considers how particular esthetic techniques invite new ways of imagining the physical body and its environment. Her book, manuscript for Readings of Cuban Literature and Art, The Body, the Inhuman and Ecological Thinking, was published in May 2024 by the University of Florida Press.

00;01;05;22 - 00;01;32;05
Bek
In January, she will be the director of Women's and Gender Studies. We'll thank you for being with me today and joining me for this. I want to get started off with just the first question. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came to CFC? Sure, absolutely. First, let me thank you. Because, it's an honor to be on the podcast, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation as well.

00;01;32;07 - 00;01;57;16
Dr. Christina García
So how did I get here? The job. I had the job? Yes, it was the job. AD. Let's see. I was, graduate student living in Irvine, California. I did my PhD in Spanish and Portuguese at UC Irvine and the program was amazing. I have no complaints. Only very fond memories. However, Irvine itself, like California, is very cool.

00;01;57;19 - 00;02;23;05
Dr. Christina García
Irvine not so cool. It has, no, nowhere to walk like. No real like town center. It's, basically like gated communities. Like fancy gated communities and, like, living. I felt like I lived inside a Starbucks. So they. And, to give you some more context, I was born and raised in Miami, and I did some of my formative years, like a big chunk of my 20s I did in New York City, and Islands.

00;02;23;08 - 00;02;46;12
Dr. Christina García
Thank you. Yeah. So, quite frankly, the difference between North and South Carolina was a bit of a blur. And, you know, it was on the East Coast, but, the job description, they were looking for someone in my field. So I was doing my dissertation on, writers and artists from Cuba on the environment. And they emphasized the body and more broadly, the Spanish speaking Caribbean.

00;02;46;16 - 00;03;14;13
Dr. Christina García
So first I was like, oh, wow, there's a job ad, and they're actually looking for what I do because it's a rare thing, like at least at this, unfortunately, in our times in the humanities. So it matched my research. And they also had study abroad program to Cuba. And that was huge. And College of Charleston, has the or at least one of the longest semester long study abroad programs to Cuba.

00;03;14;18 - 00;03;36;29
Dr. Christina García
So this was a huge draw. I so I was already very excited. Then I come to the campus, visit and there's oh, I should also say that my campus was like built in the 60s, and it's like this brutalist architecture. So I come here and it's this, like, gorgeous colonial historic architecture. I'm also like a big sucker for cobblestone.

00;03;37;04 - 00;03;58;06
Dr. Christina García
There's like cobblestone. Lots of that. California is very dry, very desert. And listed here. Yeah. It's it's so large and people complain about the humidity. But as soon as you don't have it, you realize like, it's important. So I fell in love with it. I was just like, oh, my God, I really want to come here. And my colleagues were great.

00;03;58;09 - 00;04;29;11
Dr. Christina García
Also, the museum happened to have an exhibition during my, campus visit on a Cuban artist, Roberto Diego. So, yeah, it's perfect timing. Yeah, yeah. It did. It felt like it felt cosmic. And, fortunately, my colleagues liked me, and they gave me the job, so I'm, It's been great. And, I'm in the East coast, closer to the Caribbean, geographically, but also culturally and historically.

00;04;29;11 - 00;05;00;21
Dr. Christina García
There's, you know, strong connections. And then, yeah. And then my my colleagues are awesome. And I love that they support, teaching. I should say I'm in the Department of Hispanic Studies. They support, affiliations and teaching and contributing to other programs. Absolutely. The intersectionality as you has been why, new change of pace for people who might not have seen that before coming into Charleston.

00;05;00;23 - 00;05;24;11
Bek
But yeah, we're very happy to. Have you been in Charleston my whole life, and I can send you for all of Charleston. We're happy to have you. Thank you. But, like, you've been all over, to a lot of different coasts. And I'm happy you ended up here, I am, too, I'm very grateful. Yeah, yeah, the Halsey, the the way that they make art accessible to everyone is beautiful.

00;05;24;11 - 00;05;49;00
Unknown
And I'm really glad that. Yeah, that it was there. Yeah. It was definitely. Yeah. It was one of the things and that they also I mean they make it they definitely curated and present material to make it very accessible. But I love that they, put all their resources towards bringing emerging artist as opposed to, creating a collection.

00;05;49;06 - 00;06;12;06
Unknown
So that's really cool. So they don't have a collection, but they put all their time, energy and funds in bringing contemporary artists, so that we get to see like really incredible exhibitions. And it's really, a privilege of being at College of Charleston. Yeah, we're working there and we're studying here. Yeah. So how have you been involved with wounds and gender studies in the past?

00;06;12;06 - 00;06;37;15
Unknown
Sure. So I actually didn't become affiliated until about, like two years ago, but I was, definitely involved from the very beginning. I attended the, yes, I'm a feminist events, and I was just in complete, one there, just like a great party. So I had a great time, but I was also in, of, director Chris, the worlds for the organization.

00;06;37;15 - 00;07;00;13
Unknown
And it was just like a really wonderful, event to be a part of. But I think what was most meaningful to me, I mean, there were other things, like the intersections. I also participated on a panel, and I went to different panels. But I think the most impactful was I got invited for two consecutive years by students that were doing their capstones.

00;07;00;20 - 00;07;18;22
Unknown
So they invited me to come to the capstone party. So I had only Moore and Delaney. If you happen to listen to this, I miss you make contact. I hope you're thriving. And I'm sure you guys are doing great things. But I got to attend, and I just I was just like, wow, it was so beautiful.

00;07;18;22 - 00;07;39;15
Unknown
Because aside that, it's, like, celebratory, but it's just like a really great community. And you guys were doing such interesting work. So all of that was before I even became affiliated. And then it just made sense. We finally did it. Like I finally filled out the application. Because most of my courses, I like to brag, most of my courses are very gay.

00;07;39;18 - 00;08;19;13
Unknown
And so, I mean, some of them, like, friends with benefits or, but see, I'm now losing. I'm forgetting the title of my other class, but anyways, there are other courses that I teach that explicitly address, gender and sexual difference. But then even in the courses where I'm not explicitly engaged with those social issues, like if they get a on the surface, they're all guided by, eco feminists or feminists more broadly, but especially by eco feminists and by queer theory or bio politics.

00;08;19;16 - 00;08;46;15
Unknown
So, my students will one of the things that we really work on is, close textual analysis. So that's my field, right? I look at tax, I look at images. And how do we, you know, how do we read them closely. But we're reading them closely not to sort of dig like what did the author mean or what sort of information, but more about how does this either restate a certain power dynamic or how does it complicate that power dynamic?

00;08;46;22 - 00;09;22;11
Unknown
Right. And how how can we tease out these different ways of looking at and understanding the world? So in many ways, I feel like all of everything that I teach is very much inflected by the ethos of women in gender studies. That's awesome. Thank you. And I mean, you kind of answered this question with, how you've spoken about your previous movement, but what was the like, the deciding factor that made you take on the role of the director?

00;09;22;11 - 00;09;42;14
Unknown
That is that is a good question because it's quite different. The one thing is like being affiliated, right? Right. Contributing to the program and being immersed in it. Another thing is taking on that administrative leadership role. And honestly, that was not part of my plan. I had just, I got tenure last year. I love teaching, I love being in the classroom.

00;09;42;14 - 00;10;07;16
Unknown
I love doing my research. And I was like, I just want to do more of that. But then there was a need, right? There was a vacancy and there was a need to fulfill that role. And I thought to myself, my gosh, will I get, first of all, the faculty, right? Like the faculty, the permanent faculty, Cristina Dominguez, Krystal Wilde, the affiliated faculty, the staff, Priscilla Thomas, like these people are brilliant.

00;10;07;16 - 00;10;47;29
Unknown
They're fierce, they're compassionate. And I'm like, I can't turn down an opportunity to work alongside them. And then the students like, come on, students are the coolest. You know, I'm sad, but you guys are invested in questioning the status quo. So for me, I was like, okay, no, that I can't turn down that that opportunity to be able to contribute in whatever way that I can, but then also that, like I see my main gig right as being director is promoting and advocating for the study of women and gender studies, right, for this interdisciplinary program.

00;10;48;02 - 00;11;11;23
Unknown
And, that's something that's really easy for me to get behind. It's something that I feel like I'm already doing. So why not, you know, do it, give myself the opportunity right to do that, to devote more time to that. But so that students, you know, you guys are drawing from anthropology, from theater, from literature, from psychology.

00;11;11;23 - 00;11;34;08
Unknown
You're drawing from all these different disciplines to take from their theories and their methodologies a way to analyze and to question the way things are. Right. So I love that about women in gender studies that I feel for me, it starts off from the point of departure is nothing's a given, right? Like we question like all these things that might be quote unquote normal.

00;11;34;10 - 00;11;57;13
Unknown
There are conventions. So how did we get here? Right. So studying, the history, the culture and the politics, all the processes that brought us to that. And so to me, it's like, what more do you what more do you want from an education? You know, like that's really important. And, ultimately that I was just like, yes, okay, this wasn't part of my plan, but sign me up.

00;11;57;19 - 00;12;19;18
Unknown
I want to do this. That is so admirable. And you had me tearing up just a little bit there. I love everyone in the program and it really has changed my life. And as someone who is so close to leaving, I really don't want to. But I've been like holding on with money, with my tight grip. I'm like, I love this school.

00;12;19;18 - 00;12;52;11
Unknown
And really, last semester we were all like very desperate to like, figure out who was going to take this role. Yeah, was going to step up because as much as we have felt supported in the past, like this is like such a need and necessity right now because the program is so, like small yet so expansive, are there any goals you have set for yourself when approaching the role?

00;12;52;13 - 00;13;20;15
Unknown
Yes. They're pretty simple at the moment. It's basically listen, learn and support. I think the program is already fantastic. And so I want to help to help it continue to flourish. I want to help the faculty and staff do what they do best. Maybe a year from now I'll be like, actually, Brad, I have some other ideas.

00;13;20;17 - 00;13;37;16
Unknown
But I, I sometimes I at least I'm not entering with the sort of expectation on myself. I feel like sometimes when people will take on a new role, they're like, well, I need to leave my mark and what am I going to do differently? And, for better or for worse, I don't feel that right now. Like I don't need to necessarily, like, leave my mark.

00;13;37;16 - 00;14;06;09
Unknown
It's just more about what can I do to support this program that is already so good so that it could do more of it. I do think that my strengths are connecting with people. So one of my goals is to first, like nourish the existing relationships that we have across campus and outside of campus and then later considering, well, what other, relationships can we build?

00;14;06;11 - 00;14;36;15
Unknown
And then also, really fostering an environment that, is appreciative, right, to recognize, you know, that is appreciative and that, where people feel like they can be creative and, you know, contribute in that way and then continue the program has this uniquely feminist composition in terms of how it distributes, like in terms of how decisions are made and how labor is distributed, which is different.

00;14;36;15 - 00;15;01;09
Unknown
Like another other program directors are certain decisions that, you know, remain with the director. So I would want to support and continue that composition. So you spoke a little bit about your close friends with benefits. Yeah. And I would like to know more about how you center feminist thought in this course and other courses you teach.

00;15;01;11 - 00;15;44;20
Unknown
Yes. Okay. So what I didn't get to mention, like, in all the other sort of course, titles like Animals and Meaty Bodies, the course that I'm teaching now, which is Cannibal Readers of Latin America, there's definitely this movement we're working against, I guess, first and foremost, anthropocentrism. Right? Or any kind of centrism. So, I draw a lot like the specific thinkers that have been really important to me are Jane Bennett and Karen Barad, and they talk about something that's called, Jane Bennet, specifically vibrant matter.

00;15;44;23 - 00;16;09;25
Unknown
So that the idea that everything is matter. And we usually find that to be, like, really reductive, right? Like we think of spirit as better or the immaterial or the abstract. And so these feminists are kind of going back to like old school Marxism and they're like, everything's matter, or materiality. But that materiality is not just inert, it's not just passive, it's not just some resource to exploit.

00;16;09;27 - 00;16;35;17
Unknown
In fact, there is nothing on the planet that is just mere resource, right? That it's just mere matter. All of it is vibrant. So when you have that perspective, it completely destabilizes whatever kind of rhetoric you use to justify the exploitation of these bodies or this landscape for the benefit of these bodies, it doesn't mean we're not going to prioritize.

00;16;35;17 - 00;17;21;05
Unknown
We have to, but it means it requires this constant ethical labor of recognizing and questioning why, right or not, just assuming that it's a God given right right to exploit this right for the benefit of that. So we work against and I will get to friends with benefits. So we work against. Right. So the idea of anthropocentrism working against the binary of the animal and the human, because while it's mostly accepted that, gender, racial class, cultural religious differences, that these are, well, generally accepted that these are performative, that they're culturally, politically, historically constituted.

00;17;21;12 - 00;17;51;10
Unknown
It's taken for granted. Oh, the humans and animals are different, but all of these different social hierarchies and discriminations get mapped on to that binary. So a lot of what we do in my class is destabilize, right. Like, and really emphasize that what's different or how we organize difference is based on esthetics, like it's based on how we see, how we see and how we choose, right, the compartments that we choose to, to use.

00;17;51;13 - 00;18;20;00
Unknown
But it also means so going back to like, the distinction or troubling the distinctions between the human and the animal and materiality is vibrant. It also recognizes that we're constantly part of an assemblage. We're constantly embedded in these ecologies. So we are interdependent. So some of the words that I sort of disabuse my students are that we consider good words, or at least I want to complicate is independence.

00;18;20;03 - 00;18;46;24
Unknown
Autonomy, rights and representations like these are things that are based on the idea of the individual sovereign subject. And so the feminist that I'm drawing from or want to emphasize more vulnerability, what we share is difference. It's loss. So going back to friends, we think of friends as and I love teaching, of course, because like Warren College like that's the most important thing is our friends like our friendship.

00;18;46;26 - 00;19;17;07
Unknown
It takes precedence. But we usually tend to gravitate or think of friendship on similitude. Right? Like I, we like the same things. We, our friends, make us feel secure. We belong. We're part of this group. We share an identity and the sort of friendship that I'm drawing from. And this is a lot from, from queer studies is friends that kind of blur the boundary with your enemy like friends that make you feel uncomfortable, friends that question your historical identity, like why I this way?

00;19;17;07 - 00;19;38;23
Unknown
And it's like, really? Well, can you be different? You know, are you that way? Yeah. Why are you that way? Let's think about that. So, the ethics of discomfort, right. Like having and not assume that, classically. So we'll do some, like Greco-Roman, like classical philosophy, and we'll read Aristotle and it's very boring, like, kind of important.

00;19;38;26 - 00;20;03;21
Unknown
And, and we'll see how like the model of friendship, like the ideal friend was, first of all, a dude. I had a row, dude. And this dude was impervious. Super healthy. Strong doesn't need anybody. Also very transparent. Always going to tell you the truth and never going to have ulterior motives. That dude doesn't need friends because they're so perfect, right?

00;20;03;21 - 00;20;42;16
Unknown
Right. And so that actually sometimes, like, we all have motives, right? And we all have needs and vulnerabilities. So centering friendship on that, on the vulnerability and thinking of community, thinking of community, not on these positive properties that we share, but more on loss, on mortality, on grieving. On difference. Yeah. A lot of the community I found at College of Charleston has been rooted in that, like yearning for being in the uncomfortable and like sitting in, in the clergy or in uncomfort in the uncomfortable.

00;20;42;16 - 00;21;15;12
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. And, actually, like trying to grow and work and like discover, uncover. And especially in, like a city like Charleston, with so much uncover, growing up here, there's also like the, like the active work of why did I learn what I did when I learned it? Why didn't I learn what I didn't learn when I should have learned it?

00;21;15;15 - 00;21;42;28
Unknown
And yeah, I, I think now I'm getting really jealous of your classes. You're like, this sounds so interesting. I'm like, I wish I had another semester. Well, back. You're always welcome to come and get on my classes, but I have no doubt that your your classes were kick ass. They, Yeah, they they have been. I was lucky enough to, have classes with D world and Dominguez.

00;21;43;01 - 00;22;10;16
Unknown
And Dominguez is really the reason why I, declared a major in WTS. Yeah. I wasn't surprised. Right. I my I declared my minor after taking intro, and then I took queer and trans studies with Doctor Dominguez and the whole like praxis, the whole environment, the community and the like, being able to be uncomfortable. And there being hard discussions.

00;22;10;16 - 00;22;30;25
Unknown
That was what really pushed me to be like, I don't want to start taking these classes like I don't want my minor to end, like, how can we draw this out? That's something that I admire so much about Doctor Dominguez, because I talk a lot of discomfort and like theoretically, but they really put that to practice in their class.

00;22;30;27 - 00;22;51;22
Unknown
I mean, the way that they teach is just I recently got to sit on one of their classes and we had spoken a lot. So I knew a lot about it, about their pedagogy. And I already knew that they a badass. But then to see them in action, you know, usually like when we observe, peers, like there's something like, oh, this was great, this was great.

00;22;51;22 - 00;23;17;23
Unknown
But I could see how, like, first of all, I had no recommendations, like, no recommendations. And I was just really impressed. I was like, this was masterful. And just so grateful that our students are exposed to this kind of practice. And I just want to go back. I think something the way that you articulated was really important, the self-reflective reflection that you took about questioning the why, like, that's so important, right?

00;23;17;23 - 00;23;47;16
Unknown
Like, well, why wasn't I, like, not just filling in? Well, I wasn't taught this right. So now I have this new content, but then going back and reflecting on like what was going on, right, like what are the reasons why this sort of information or this sort of history is not made visible? Absolutely. And I want to kind of change direction towards your book, your, corporal readings of Cuban art and literature, the body inhumane and ecological thinking.

00;23;47;20 - 00;24;12;20
Unknown
That's it. I wrote that one. Yeah. You did. And if you want to just talk about a synopsis or you just kind of know what what you would like to share with listeners of. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So in this book, I look at the work of writers and artists from Cuba. Now, why from Cuba's? Well, they particularly do this in Cuba.

00;24;12;20 - 00;24;30;29
Unknown
But my interests, I want to say, is more broadly the Caribbean. But when you're writing the stems from my dissertation. So when you're writing your dissertation and you've got so much, there's just sometimes limits that you have to put right. And so my advisor was like, dude, you've got a lot like, why don't you leave that for your second day to focus on Cuba?

00;24;31;02 - 00;24;59;12
Unknown
And I had resistance because a lot of what I'm interested is how these writers and artists are working against national identity or the idea of the nation as this, like homogeneous or unified subjectivity. So somehow I was like, oh, but writing a book just about Cuba, that somehow, you know, that sort of like reiterates like the Nation. And so I guess I want to start off by saying that I'm really looking at how they kind of take it apart.

00;24;59;13 - 00;25;40;24
Unknown
Right? And one of the interesting things about the book is that interesting, but also things that made it hard to talk about in describe a first, like, make my project legible to other folks was like, I am looking at stuff that is from different historical periods, like from as early as the 1930s to as late as 2013. I'm looking at poetry, mostly narrative fiction in the form of novels, but also film, painting, photography, installations, drawings and none of these fit necessarily within a theme like all of them.

00;25;40;27 - 00;26;07;07
Unknown
Some of them are also like very avant garde, and some of it was like more commercial, like one of the films was like nominated for an Oscar here. Right? So it's like this hodgepodge of different things, but with all of these different pieces allowed me to do, was to tease out from them a certain esthetic practice that was insisting on a shared materiality.

00;26;07;07 - 00;26;36;03
Unknown
Right? Like that they shared materiality across different kinds of bodies, and this sort of ecological entanglement, and by doing so, right. And so again, when you're talking about like shared materiality and ecological entanglement, you're also talking about interdependence, vulnerability, things that totally went against the icon, especially the icon of the Cuban revolution, which is Che Guevara has long been notable along brand.

00;26;36;04 - 00;27;10;28
Unknown
Well, is this ethical, revolutionary figure that's going to sacrifice himself for the community? But again, this was a dude, a white dude. He had to be hetero because he had to procreate, like create, but actually, like, generate generations of this new man. And really healthy, like, they're very medical, like it was very medicalized, and morally too. So it just this sort of impervious figure that then necessarily leaves out all of these other bodies, right?

00;27;10;28 - 00;27;51;24
Unknown
All of these other types of bodies. So I'm arguing that by looking at these esthetic practices that actually span like different types of mediums and different historical periods, I am working against the assumption that these historical, you know, like things are usually organized like colonial republic, revolution, post-revolution. And so I'm tracing these continuities that disrupt these neat little historical markers, and I'm showing that, like, look at how these artists and writers throughout all these different contexts and times are emphasizing this inter this ecological and corporeal interdependence.

00;27;51;26 - 00;28;22;11
Unknown
And so again, right. So that disrupts the national identity. But it also, works against ideas of like the individual sovereign subjects. So yeah, that's what the book does. I'm sure your, your dissertation was like quite, quite intense, like you probably did so much like research and background and that's a long like span of time just in of itself.

00;28;22;11 - 00;28;43;07
Unknown
It is, it is I don't know. It's a really good question. I think at the end of the day, it was a lot of it was very philosophical, like, so a lot of it is like close attention to the object, I think. Yes. I think all dissertations, I don't think mine was like extra work. I think they're all like different.

00;28;43;07 - 00;29;05;14
Unknown
Right? I mean, different kinds of work. My work was really sitting with my primary sources, like the objects themselves for a really long time, like thinking about them and being with them. And so, like I consider in another context, like I've been asked because I draw from a lot of different theories. I love, like critical animal studies, critical race studies, queer studies.

00;29;05;19 - 00;29;27;12
Unknown
You know, I just draw from these camps. And I had someone ask me there, like, so how do you feel? Like, are you ever anxious about, like people expecting like a certain level of expertise. And I was like, I don't like I don't have like, I can't claim this like expertise in these field. But at the end of the day, my I feel like my obligation is to the works themselves.

00;29;27;12 - 00;29;57;04
Unknown
Right to that text, to that image, to the complexity. And so giving, sitting with that, sitting with the discomfort. Right. And just really sitting with I think what I really sort of hone in on is when things are complex and they don't let you interpret them. I like that I'm drawn to that. So a lot of the things that made it into my book precisely were like, no, I'm not going to let you read me or I'm going to make this really complicated for you.

00;29;57;05 - 00;30;21;06
Unknown
Yeah, that's the word that came to my mind is like the complicated it is. It is complicated as, like, puzzling, you know, the. Yeah. Like hard to detangle. Yes, yes, yes. So about your second book. Are you, like, work now are there? I am, so I'm starting I'm going to give a sabbatical talk on October 30th.

00;30;21;08 - 00;30;42;00
Unknown
Yes. Where is that going to be? Okay. God. Good question. I think it's a Tate, the Tate building. But anyways, yeah, I'll circulate the flier. All right. So my second project, it's very meal, but it's while I was working. So it stems from my first project. So I said that I looked at artists and writers that emphasize ecological entanglements.

00;30;42;03 - 00;31;13;29
Unknown
So when I try to talk about or like the key terms, one of the key terms for my book is environmental humanities or eco criticism, but usually eco criticism. Traditionally, and it's there's fabulous eco criticism out there. So I don't want to like, diminish the complexity and the depth of it. But oftentimes it's kind of about how did this writer or that artist raised consciousness awareness about a specific ecological problem?

00;31;14;01 - 00;31;39;28
Unknown
The stuff that I'm looking at in my book, with the exception of like one artist, no one's thinking about the environment. Like especially the dude that's writing in 1930. Like, it's not even a thing. Like it's not something that they're conscious about, right? But I that's where the term ecological thinking comes out, right? So I'm not dealing with people that are explicitly addressing environmental issues, but I'm like, look at the way that they're writing.

00;31;39;28 - 00;32;04;25
Unknown
They're creating the sort of they're soliciting new ways of thinking about the world that that invite a more ecological relationship. And so it made me think about more about how to approach. All right, because a lot of there's also a lot of conversation about art and activism. And I also find some of that kind of reductive, like just kind of like how much does this are?

00;32;04;26 - 00;32;31;28
Unknown
Again, it's about sort of like communicating an idea. And I'm like, I'm because going back to the messiness and the entanglement, and I'm interested in stuff that doesn't let you walk away with a simple idea, right. That's really resistant towards that. I wanted to think about, like art objects and our relationship to the creative. And when I say art, I mean like very expansively like craft, just like, you know, transforming something, right?

00;32;31;28 - 00;32;58;21
Unknown
Just making things in a way that wasn't just about a messenger. Like I communicated this message. They can we think about it doing something way more transformative and magical. And so in a way that's like irreducible, right? Because the other thing is like when we think of like, oh, it communicates this message, then we're making art something utilitarian, like we're making it instrumental, right?

00;32;58;21 - 00;33;39;20
Unknown
And then it's sort of like this market value, like what does it do? And so, so again, so that I find that very reductive. Now, drawing from Caribbean intellectual history and Afro diasporic practices, there is a long tradition in the Caribbean for thinking of things not just as symbolic. So in Afro diasporic practices and also folk Catholicism, when you create an altar, when you perform a ritual, when you do herbology, or you do sorcery like it's sorcery, like chess going down, you don't have to have faith in it like it's happening, like something really transformative is happening in the world.

00;33;39;25 - 00;34;07;00
Unknown
And so I want to draw from that sorcery, and I want to think about the creative process as a form of sorcery. They can we think of art making in ways that are more expansive. So yeah, it's a new project by two out there, but not all I'm excited about. I think that is intersectional enough to like kind of intrigue everyone.

00;34;07;02 - 00;34;40;08
Unknown
And yeah, no, that's that's very beautiful. I, I think especially like the different differing forms of creative creativity. Yeah. Media and yeah, that's that's going to be very interesting. Yeah. So it's going to be fun to work on too. Thank you. I mean I kind of okay, so one thing, the way you described it, like different forms like that's so, so one of the things I'm trying to do is first of all expands like what creativity is like, expand your idea, right of what create like kind of recognize how creative things are happening all around us.

00;34;40;08 - 00;35;09;10
Unknown
Right. So really expand the domain of art and then also really expands the supernatural or magic or things that do not conform to, quote unquote, laws of nature and whatever with laws of nature like, cool. I don't know, it always covering a lady or whatever. And so yeah, just really expanding like what we recognize as magic or extraordinary enchanting and what we recognize, as art.

00;35;09;13 - 00;35;31;07
Unknown
Yeah. And then the other thing is in terms of, like, working like the the joy of working on it, that's sort of the benefit of when you're a tenured professor. There isn't sort of. At least you don't feel so much pressure. Like, I just feel like I can be more ambitious and creative and, like, maybe this will be a flop or whatever, but I like it and I don't want to do it.

00;35;31;08 - 00;35;51;19
Unknown
That's definitely what you should do. Like. Yeah, that's how you should approach tenure. I mean, you are safe. Like you can do it. You want to work on the knees? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mostly it's safest we can be right now, you know, like. Yeah. But I think that's a great way to go about it. Why not?

00;35;51;19 - 00;36;20;19
Unknown
I mean, you're never gonna know if it's a flop unless you do it and, you know, hopefully. Yes. I don't think it will be a flop. There's no way in my mind that I could see that. But it is. Thank you. I have bags approval. So, on that, on that note, like, how do you see art and its capability to, like, sort of bring community together, bring people like from all different, cultures and communities?

00;36;20;19 - 00;36;32;16
Unknown
Yeah. I love that question. Thank you. Thank you. I really love that question because I feel it's like something like I evangelize to my students. I'm like this, this is so important.

00;36;32;18 - 00;36;54;21
Unknown
I guess empathy is one of the things that I most, I think are really critical to a society, right? To be able to be empathetic, that requires imagination. You can never know someone else the same way. You can never know yourself. Absolutely. Right. So that's it's also this idea of, also more feminist, feminist philosophy, epistemological humility. Right.

00;36;54;21 - 00;37;20;14
Unknown
It's like just accepting like I can't know, right? Right. But you can imagine, you can take a leap, right? You can make this after you make this leap of imagination. And so first and foremost, I feel like that's what creative production allows us and invites us to do right, to use our imagination. And while we can't know the other person, we can try, right?

00;37;20;14 - 00;37;46;04
Unknown
We can try to imagine. So that to me is really, really critical. Also, in terms of like understanding, like being with difference. Right? Like I think like a really like a good piece of art isn't going to assimilate something for you. Right? It's going to it's going to confront you with something different, something provoking, something that makes you or invite or.

00;37;46;06 - 00;38;15;16
Unknown
Yeah. Invites you to look at the world from a different perspective. And that is really essential in terms of, connecting with other people, like having the understanding that your perspective is not universal, it's just yours. Right. And it's been you have filters. You arrive with filters like your personal history, your family history, right? Your culture, your politics.

00;38;15;16 - 00;38;38;21
Unknown
We all arrive with these different filters, and we're all looking at things from a different perspective. And so art reminds us, right, that there are other ways to see and understand the world. And taking a different perspective allows you to take on a different cosmology. So ultimately, I think it just cultivates difference, difference and empathy and compassion.

00;38;38;24 - 00;39;11;24
Unknown
Absolutely. I have never thought about, like the creativity of empathy. So I really like how you phrase that. And I wish that I was like a more creative person in general. Like I try to like be good at like certain forms of art and different things, but it is really nice to like kind of put into perspective how even like the mundane can be creative.

00;39;11;24 - 00;39;35;23
Unknown
Yeah. And yeah, and there's so much meaning in a lot of different things that we do. There's creativity in your thinking. Yeah. Right. So there's like the, the, the stuff that's usually legible. Like I did a painting, I did this and that's awesome. Right. But that's not the creativity is not just that. Right. There's ways. Yeah.

00;39;35;23 - 00;40;25;26
Unknown
To to to have creativity in all that you do. And I really I agree with you on how just being able to see different experiences or put yourself like quote, like in the shoes of other people, is just such a way to put your like life in your like lens into perspective of like, this is not necessarily the lens of everyone else and kind of take away like layers of that lens and kind of be like, well, what would things be like had I not seen this or not experienced this, or not met this person, and or if I had done this or had lived here and so forth.

00;40;25;28 - 00;40;54;07
Unknown
But yeah, I, always inspired, I think that even if you don't feel like creative or like you're a good actor or right, you're not like the perfect at watercolor, or if you can't, like, play the piano really well, like, I can't do any writing, by the way, I can't either. I been trying to learn piano because it's harder than it looks, you know?

00;40;54;07 - 00;41;22;14
Unknown
And thank you. And, yeah, I, I really enjoy, seeing other people create and other people, like, have those different experiences. And even just walking through, I know we we spoke about the palsy, but even just walking through like Hato and seeing like the walls of like the student artwork and all the scenery and the different displays, it's so inspirational.

00;41;22;14 - 00;41;51;00
Unknown
And it's also just like, kind of, like a peek behind the curtains of like what is happening in other people's minds, you know? And like, like you said, we can never, like, actually know what someone else is going through or what someone else is like, experiencing. But it does a lot to actually put yourself in a situation where you're at least trying, you know?

00;41;51;00 - 00;42;16;14
Unknown
Yeah, you're at least like, yearning to, yeah. Or I should say, like, you try, you make the effort, but just knowing without the assumption, right, that you make that effort to understand that person, but always knowing that you're going to get it wrong a little. Right. Right. And being able to just be wrong and hopefully correct yourself.

00;42;16;19 - 00;42;48;22
Unknown
Yeah. No and yes. But do you have any like, lasting advice that you like to leave with the students? I know that you're probably going to give quite a lot of advice. You know, the upcoming, physician. There's going to be quite a lot of students. Oh, my God, I you okay? Different types. Yeah. It's lately especially, there's so much the discourse is so much about being practical.

00;42;48;25 - 00;43;18;03
Unknown
I mean, that's not necessarily anything new, but I feel like now I feel it now at this point in my life, like in terms of the Academy, I'm hearing this more, of course, because the economic situation is so bad. But there is this impetus of like being very calculating with what you choose to study. And this idea, I hate that that term return for investment, like, oh, if you study this, you're going to get this salary.

00;43;18;03 - 00;43;46;11
Unknown
And I just feel the really false equivalence, like, not only do I ethically have problems with it, but I just I also think it's wrong. Like I don't think that that's the world fortunately is way more complicated and interesting than that. And so I would say, please don't study something just because you think that is the practical decision and that this is going to lead to this job because it doesn't work that way.

00;43;46;11 - 00;44;19;19
Unknown
It's not a 1 to 1 correspondence, and you're going to excel and thrive when you study something that stimulates you, something that you love, but that also challenges you, that makes you uncomfortable, all of those things. But you need to be excited. And so whatever you choose to study, if you're excited by that, you're going to thrive. And so, so my kid, she's 16, she's studying theater and an amazing actress.

00;44;19;19 - 00;44;44;29
Unknown
She thought she was the school of the Arts. Just so much talent. And I have no doubt that she'll probably have a successful career. But of course, there's like the questioning, like, oh, but is that like the right path? And it's like, you know what? She doesn't have to be an actor. An actor, right? Like, but because she's going to be stimulated, because she's going to be excited, she's going to learn, she's going to thrive.

00;44;44;29 - 00;45;17;14
Unknown
And that will the things that she learns from that are going to translate to another career. So yeah, study what you love. Absolutely. I, I relate to that a lot. I actually came into the College of Charleston, with my mindset on pediatric surgery, and, I was going to. Yeah. Yes, I was going to like, go public health and like, do the whole pre-med and just try my best, you know, make as much as I could.

00;45;17;14 - 00;45;49;04
Unknown
And I really had the mindset of, like, if I'm not a doctor or like a lawyer or something that my dad would want for me. Well, I'm. How, you know, how I'm putting my efforts where they need me. And it was really just the first, like, step away from, like, familial, like, pressures and being able to take the classes that I wanted to take, that I was like, this is like like psychology is like really interesting.

00;45;49;04 - 00;46;12;00
Unknown
And I, for some reason wanted to know about, like, the brain and how everything works and how people work, how they interact, how they communicate. And I stumbled across it. Yes, I have to admit. Yeah, it was just out of luck and I am so thankful. A lot of the time I get asked, what are you going to do with that?

00;46;12;00 - 00;46;47;12
Unknown
And like, well, you know, it's like, what can you not like anything, the right answer, I think there's so many surgery. But I mean, even just looking back now, like now that I'm focusing on grad school and like what I'm going to study in the future, I am seeing all of these different things that I wanted to do when I was going into undergrad, and they're still available to me, you know, like there's still a chance I could if I really wanted to, I could go to law school or I could go to med school.

00;46;47;14 - 00;47;08;06
Unknown
And I think that is also just so ignored sometimes of like, there are so many ways that you can change past. I like just because you studied undergrad. One thing doesn't mean that has to be your thing for the rest of your life. And then it sorry, it actually makes you more competitive. Candidate like take law school for instance.

00;47;08;06 - 00;47;28;19
Unknown
So the path is usually political science, which is great. I'm not, you know, but you stand out if you studied something else. So decided to do English or you started to do women in gender studies in psychology, because at the end of the day, it's like, are you a good critical thinker? Do you know how to communicate? Do you know how to read well and write well?

00;47;28;21 - 00;47;54;04
Unknown
And so you are actually if you do not take the traditional path, you are at an advantage because you stand out and you bring a different perspective. A lot of what, capstone was last because I took it last semester. Capstone was kind of being able to see what, what lens and gender studies can do for you and like, where it can take you.

00;47;54;04 - 00;48;23;17
Unknown
And, we even had like a panel of, I think it was 4 or 5, people come in and just answer questions about how women's and gender studies got them where they are. And it was really influential. I, just so in of how women's and gender studies can really, just form like a good path for people like it is in and of itself.

00;48;23;20 - 00;48;46;05
Unknown
There are so many ways you can go with women's and gender studies, but there are also so many ways that you can add, like women's and gender studies, onto what you're doing. And I think that's what a lot of students are, doing, especially me. I, you know, I declared a double major. I was like, I want this to be at the same level that psychology is.

00;48;46;05 - 00;49;13;02
Unknown
I don't want it to be a minor anymore. And I think that it really is going to, provide a lot of hopefully, engagement in the program in the future. And I know that's not a question. Yeah, I know that all the students I get to listen to this are probably going to feel so much closer to you and what you are like, what you stand for, what you study, what you, believe.

00;49;13;02 - 00;49;36;00
Unknown
And yeah, I'm so excited for you to take on the the huge role that you're doing. It's I wish I could, be there in January, but I'll definitely swing by. I'll stop by. But I would like thank you so much. I loved having this conversation with you. Thank you. So I really appreciate thank you for joining us for another episode of What If.

00;49;36;02 - 00;49;52;02
Unknown
You can continue to support the program and our podcast by visiting WGS, connect our Instagram at CFC WGS, and checking out the college's official news site, The College Today. Stay safe out there and stay feminist, y'all! Best of luck.