S3, Ep 5: Third spaces and intersectional communities

This episode of What IFF? We had a conversation with Dr. Naomi Simmons (she/her) and WGS major Mo Spragins (she/they) about the importance of third spaces and how they foster community on our campus and in the world we live in. We also discuss third spaces in relation to hustle culture, self and community care, and more.

Support the CofC Pride Center at https://give.cofc.edu/pride-center 

Transcript

Copy

0:00:00 [intro music]

0:00:07 Mallory (Ma): Welcome to What IFF?, a podcast where we imagine intersectional feminist futures and talk about the role social activism plays in our everyday lives. I'm your host, Mallory Mason, and I use they/them pronouns.

0:00:17 Emily (E): And I'm Emily Currey, and I use she/her pronouns. In today's episode, we will be speaking with Dr. Naomi Simmons and Mo Spragins about the importance of third spaces and the impact that they have on community building and care.

0:00:29 (Ma): Additionally, we will be dissecting third spaces as a concept and exploring the implications of their significance in our lives and how we socialize with one another. We hope you enjoy.

0:00:38 (Ma): Hi, welcome. Thank you both for being here. Dr. Simmons, we can start with you. Do you want to introduce yourself?

0:00:45 Dr. Naomi Simmons (N): Oh, sure. So I'm Dr. Naomi Simmons, and I am formerly the director of the Pride Center, which we're going to chat about today, but I'm really excited to be here.

0:00:54 (Mo): Hello, I'm Mo Spragins, and I am formerly the office coordinator at the Pride Center, and I am a student on campus that is studying biology and women's and gender studies.

0:01:07 (Ma): Awesome. Thank you both so much for that. So I guess for both of you, can you briefly define or describe what kinds of third spaces are in your own words?

0:01:17 (Mo): So a third space for me is it can be anywhere, and it is a space where you can come together in community with one another in a supportive manner. So it can be like a meet and greet type of thing where you're all sitting together in someone's apartment, and maybe you had done a protest that day and you just need a place to gather and recuperate. It’s definitely a means of bringing community together and practicing care with one another.

0:01:53 (N): Yeah, I would echo pretty much everything you just said. I really love the words, like, gather and community when we think about third spaces. For me, I have found that I need it to be something that is more intentional than not just because life is crazy, and sometimes I have to think more intentionally about, like, okay, this space is going to be used for this, and it's different than the other things that I'm engaging in. I like to think of the Pride Center as a really good third space for students. For me, because of the Pride Center, upstairs and downstairs in my office used to be upstairs. It was kind of like upstairs was the office, and then the third space was like the downstairs. But now it's been really nice that there's gathering going on upstairs as well, and so it's kind of just a good place to meet, like you said, and talk, and definitely always

kind of approaching things with a sense of respect and care for a human dignity level.

It's not about like having conversations where you are trying to seek agreement. It's about showing up, validating, supporting, and being in community with each other.

0:03:02 (E): That's great, and as you talk about the Pride Center, Naomi, can you discuss your experience in establishing a third place like the Pride Center?

0:03:08 (N): Yeah, so I came to the College [of Charleston] about three years ago, and the College did not have a Pride Center. It had something called Gender Sexuality Equity Center [GSEC], which was something that was started within Women and Gender Studies by faculty who were not necessarily like their spare time, but kind of their spare time. They're trying to manage their everyday duties and also provide space for LGBTQ students and provide some kind of resources and visibility on campus. So when I got here, kind of my directive was to create a space that was just for focusing on LGBTQ identities and issues, and that the goal would really be to have a physical building where that space could be housed, because I think as we're talking about third space, it doesn't have to be the same space always, but this would be a dedicated student space where we could address LGBTQ identities and issues. And so when I arrived, I was told that there was a little carriage house at 9.5 Glebe [Street] and that that was going to be our dedicated space, which was wonderful because I think GSEC had been housed previously kind of like in a basement of RSS [Robert Scott Small]. It was fun to open the carriage house doors and be like, this is my space. It was full of stuff, so a big part of the first year was just literally clearing it out and envisioning what would feel comforting, what would feel inclusive, like if I was a queer student today and came into this building, what would that look like, what would it feel like, and so just starting at that point, and then just really growing it from there, students started coming and getting involved. Everybody has left their own mark on the space, and we've rearranged things a number of times and we've added student art, we've added different posters that we've collected over time, so it's kind of an evolving space, but it's been really exciting to be a part of that.

0:05:06 (Ma): I honestly have so much to say about the Pride Center, I'm sure both you and Mo do, and I really love the way that you described it as evolving because I think that really speaks

volumes to the space itself and also just the community that kind of resides there, well

not like resides, but I mean, utilize as a space and we're all changing and it's constantly

going through this different shift of students and people that are involved with it, but

I think that the Pride Center as someone that, for obvious reasons, spends a lot of time

there, I mean, I think it really is so representative of so many people, it really does reflect

the people and especially the students that spend the time there, and I guess kind of

jumping back to a more generic question, and this can be for both of you, but I know that

Mo has a student perspective on this, like, can you talk a little bit about the third

spaces that you spend time in, so like, what do you do there, how often do you spend

time there, and this can be the Pride Center or can be anything else that you think is relevant.

0:06:01 (Mo): I will say the third space that I spend the most time in is the Pride Center, and one, because I did previously work there and two, just because I am visibly queer and I do try

and partake in any campus activities with any type of access for LGBTQ folks, and when I'm

not at the Pride Center, honestly, there's not that many other third spaces that are obvious

or more easily accessible. I do know that the formerly known multicultural center worked as well as the third space and as offices, and their space was quite big, and so that's nice to know that that also exists on campus, but obviously now, like, things have been changing and shifting, so

we are having to be a bit more discreet, and I do know that certain clubs are able to

cultivate their own third spaces because they reserve a room, and then that then becomes

their third space, so I think a distinction with third spaces is that as Dr. Simmons

is saying that they can evolve, so a third space doesn't just have to be like, this is

always where we're going to go, I think it really matters who is there in that space,

what bodies are present, and what are we bringing, what lived experiences are we bringing

together, and honestly, like, for me, one of- my little dorm room became a third space

like the other week after participating in the DEI sit-in on college campus, I invited

folks over so that we could just debrief, and honestly, I think they came for my cat,

and the other cat, Wallace, who was hanging out with me that day, so it was just really

nice to gather, and we were just checking in with each other, and so easily spaces where

you're comfortable and where you can kind of cultivate a sense of community, like, obviously,

those work really well as third spaces, and so, and I know one of the questions is kind

of about where are other third spaces, but honestly, that's really subjective because

there's so many other students on the campus that I don't know, and I'm sure they have

their own what they would consider a third space that I have not part taken in.

0:08:22 (N): I really love what you said about, like, the community piece, like, where you can go, and like, if you have community, you will travel, right, and then go to a space, because I was

thinking about the other day we had an event celebrating Trans Day of Visibility, and we

had set up on Cougar Mall here at the College, kind of like a rectangle of tables, and so

all the people who were helping with the different activities of the different tables were each,

like, on the inside of the rectangle, and then other students and faculty and staff, and even

people on tours were coming up to the tables from the other side, and it was so nice to

see students who were on the inside of the rectangle, like, just communicating with each

other, and kind of shifting what activities they were working on as people had to transition

to class and stuff, and some of the students were in the Trans community, some were not,

some were involved with the Pride Center, some were new to it, but everybody who was, like,

inside the rectangle was there for the same purpose, and were all tied together in that

moment, and providing support for each other, and for the activities, and therefore for the

community, and I just thought, like, oh, that's a cool little third space that nobody really, like,

set out to do, but it definitely, like, came about. 

0:09:37 (Mo): Yes, I think it's really important to also realize, like, a third space can be outside, so, like, nature, very, very grounding, a very, very important space, we all need to be outside more, I am sure, so I really like that you're drawing that distinction, because we were outside, and yes, we were in our little rectangular shape, but even just having a circle around a tree, like, I did yoga outside once with this group, it's actually the London Foundation, so I was working alongside, like, kids, and it was amazing, we just did yoga outside, and we really practiced grounding ourselves, and I hadn't thought about it until now, but that was another type of third space. 

0:10:18 (Ma): No, and I think it's really awesome that, you know, it doesn't have to be a permanent or, like, consistent space, but I love the focus, kind of, more on, like, the people in the community, because, I mean, that really does, I mean, at least for me, I cannot speak for everyone else, that really is what defines the third space, and, you know, just this idea that it's, like, ever-evolving and quoting something from our WGS class from last semester, “perpetually becoming”, because I think that that just really, for me, I think that that's just, like, such a big part of a third space, because it doesn't have to be, I mean, again, like, it can be outside, like, the Cistern or Rivers Green, where people meet all the time, and, like, it's just, like, these gathering spaces, and I think it's a really beautiful thing, honestly. 

0:10:57 (N): Yeah, and I love what you said, I love that term, perpetually, what is it?

(Ma): Perpetually becoming

(N): I need to introduce myself as that, like, I'm Naomi Simmons, I'm perpetually becoming, because, like, what am I right now? 

(Ma): No, yeah

(N): I'm perpetually becoming. 

(E): I feel like I need to write this down. 

0:11:10 (Ma): It's on my Instagram bio, and I did not come up with it.

(E): That's a fire, that's a tough bio

(Ma): Yeah, um, it's from Ghaziani & Brim’s Imagining Queer Methods I believe, and it's stuck with me ever since last semester, it's, like, just my favorite term, it's so cool. 

0:11:27 (N): When queer people queer things, it's so much better, so, like, you know, we have

evolving, and that's very, like, Western science-related, and we have perpetually becoming, like, look at what the queer people can do, which makes me think what I was gonna say was, I think that structured space is such a part of white supremacist culture, right, that certain things have to be done in a certain way, in a certain place, and if they're not done in those ways, in those places, then they lose their value, or you lose respect for them, and things like that, you know, this idea, I think, during COVID, that people could be productive outside of an office building, was a really good example, and it was like, oh no, we can't possibly have that, because we've paid all this money for office building, so you have to come back, and it's like, but I was productive and happier and healthier when I wasn't here, so when we think about third spaces as, like, queer and feminist and outside of white supremacy, I think it's so beautiful, right, and so many more things become open to the possibility of being a third space, because when we get stuck into that societal culture of everything has a meaning and a place and a purpose, it's hard for us to be creative and to let ourselves experience some third spaces in the ways that we do when we're more open.

0:12:50 (Mo): I'd like to add on to that, because when we talk about queering something, we're talking about kind of a way in which we can dismantle things that, like, systems that we are currently in, or even just, like, a methodology, you can queer a methodology, and queer the way you do things in more simpler terms, and I really appreciate you bringing up this white supremacist western culture, because third spaces I feel are insanely important in the dismantling of white western culture, and when I previously went on the feminist camp trip this January, which was brought to me by the school, I realized, oh wow, that sounds fun, like, what's that, right? We were constantly in third spaces with one another. Some of those, like, some of it was other people's apartments, I had never met these people, but they were so kind, they would provide food, they provided a space to just stay and sit, especially if it was raining or something, and some places were like buildings that you could rent an office and just use it for, like, whatever time period you need, where we could hold critical discussion and not be in the snow, because it was snowing outside, so it's like, you might want to be outside, but now it's like freezing, right? So, it's definitely more of an accommodation versus, like, no, you have to come to this workplace at this time, even if you don't want to be there, even if it's going to affect your mood, because atmosphere matters, and that's also why the people you're with matter, because you are co-creating that space now, and it takes away some of that supremacist, some of that power.

0:14:43 (N): To add on to that, when we think about third spaces as being really important about who you co-create with, that it's also really important to think about who you're co-creating with, right? Like, it makes me think a lot about bell hooks’ work and how she talks about, you know, consciousness raising groups as part of feminist theory, and that those, you can only raise the consciousness of a group if you're really co-creating with people who are part of the things you're trying to learn about, right? Raising your consciousness means learning other perspectives and about other people's lived experiences and having the opportunity to share those, and so, when we co-create, who are we co-creating with, and looking around and saying, oh, is there a gap here? Is something missing, or, you know, identifying your community, and not that it's wrong to have the community you have, but just to be aware, like, you know, this is my community. It's, I mean, me personally, my community is relatively white, relatively middle class, and actually relatively heterosexual and cisgendered, except for my work community. And so, knowing that about myself is important because I bring it with me in other spaces I'm in, and so I need to know it so I can be aware of it and be intentional about actions and behaviors that go, that happen in my life, that could be influenced by that.

0:16:01 (Ma): I think that's really awesome. I like how you mentioned the intentionality of that, and that, and only Emily is going to know this right now, but it really connects with the episode that we just did, how we were talking with Dr. John Thomas about just intentionality and really everything, and just like, you know, what we bring to other conversations and other spaces with people, and you know, that's, that's a really big part of third spaces as a whole.

0:16:24 (N): Well, if you think about, we're going to go back to white supremacist culture, and the bureaucracy 

(Mo): is all tied together. 

(E): It really is. 

(N): It really is. So like, you think about bureaucracy and the idea, it's like, it's, it's the model of the factory, right? And so how do you increase efficiency? You decrease personal connection. Because if everybody is just doing a task and they're hyper focused on one piece and being a cog in a larger system, then you're taking away the intentional relationship building so that you can have efficiency. 

(E): There's all that like surveillance and stuff too. It's just terrible.

0:16:58 (Mo): Dr. Simmons, you're making me have like an epiphany moment because

I'm, I'm sitting over here and I'm like, yes, and I want to talk about that more. So something that I've been talking about in another course, which is obviously WGS related, is how we value that efficiency and that productivity over functionality. And we are even, you could say, manipulated or like, gaslit into thinking that, oh, we are functioning though. Like, I can go to work and I can do work and I can come home and then I go to bed. But it's like, actually, you wake up, you're exhausted. You drink coffee because you need energy. You go to work and you go, go, go all day. And we're not meant to go, go, go all day like that. So then by the time you get home,

you are no longer functioning because you get home and you're like, well, damn, I got to make

dinner, but I just, I just want to sleep or oh my god, all I want to do is watch TV because I need

my brain to shut off. And then we take our anxiety meds or we take our depression meds.

And so we also have these pharmaceutical companies that are like, oh, well, if you can't function, I'm going to give you this medication so that you can have the illusion of functioning when actually you're not. And so something that was really, really important about third spaces,

which I'm circling back to now, is the aspect of care. Because then you can be held and hold people and keep accountability with one another of like, let's check in and see, how are we doing right now? And I think that can also be utilized in movements and in like a larger picture. Like, yes, small community, please do that. Like have this with your friends or your family, whoever your chosen family, whoever that may be. But then if you're also thinking on the larger scale, like movement stall, and there's there's reasons for that. So maybe like, let's make a third space, let's check in. Like, are we burnt out? What's going on? And so I love that you bring up being efficient in that way, because that's also what we're told we have to do. We have to produce this thing and get this done. 

0:19:16 (N): Yeah, and I think to like to full circle what I had started saying, in case I didn't like

clarify it, you know, when you're focused, hyper focus on this efficiency model, and you're decreasing the personal connections, you have no intentionality and you don't need it, right? Like, you don't have to wake up every day and decide what you're going to do. It's just you do it. I mean, how many times do folks feel like they're just on autopilot or how many times if you like driven someplace and you don't even remember what you did, you know, that's not how like- how you said, that's not how we're meant to be. You'll have to fact check me on this, but I was recently reading something about why time feels so much slower when you're younger. And then as you get older, it starts to feel so fast. And part of that is that we're not doing as many new things. When you're a kid so much is new, so everything feels important in time, right? And then as we get older and we're part of the system more and more and more, there's less intentionality. There's less decision making about what you're going to do. Like there's, you know, day to day things. And you get up and you do the same things every single day. Nothing's truly new. Nothing is lighting up parts of your brain that need to be lit up to make time feel relevant. So you just have all of this time that is existing, but it doesn't have meaning. And I think third spaces give us a way to push back on that. It makes me think about the Nap Ministry. And the, I'm trying to think of the author's name. So it is literally this person. And she's a Black woman who is reclaiming like both race and breaking free of capitalism by taking a nap. Like rest is resistance, right? And that when we're in this community that is constantly telling us, like you said, to go, go, go, go, go, taking a nap is active resistance. So on her Instagram page, she actually like does portraits of people, photo portraits of people taking naps in like busy spaces. Like, Oh, this is Wall Street. Take a nap, right? Like, and it's so cool. And just like encouraging people to to really like not just say you're resting, like you said, by zoning out with TV, but like take a real rest, take a real step back. And obviously, you know, there's privilege involved in that we're not all in spaces and places and and positions in life where we can do those things. But even if it's a small thing, what are ways that you can rest as resistance? Trisha Hersey? 

0:21:52 (Ma): Yes. Yeah, I was just gonna say, there's so much to say about this. And it,

and it kind of circles back to our episode with both Bilal and Dr. John Thomas, how we were

talking about in, I mean, the society that we live in, the hustle culture and how that is inherently

ableist and people– Okay, Dr. John Thomas, he said this one thing that has stuck with me since.

Now we are made to live to work instead of working to live. And that just I, I feel like that really

like sums it up for me at least. And I just– all of this interconnects together and it's it is so

ableist and it again, it decreases our connection with people, our intentionality. And it's– we are just forced to be these machines that are working. They want us to have like nothing else outside of life.

0:22:40 (N): That's something that was, and I don't want to let go, is so special to me to be doing this job especially at this time in my life. Like I was really excited to have the opportunity to do work in the community that I'm a part of. And with people who I want to be in community with, right? Like the building of the community at the Pride Center is both a paid job. Thank you. I need money. I have a mortgage and also an opportunity for me to get a personal benefit of building community with other queer people. Like I said in my day to day life, it's it's very cis[gender]het[erosexual]. And all the queer people I know besides my wife are here. And so thinking about ways to have paid work that is also an opportunity to be in community with people is important. And as we're kind of seeing this cultural change and shift of devaluing higher education and specifically liberal arts education, right? We're devaluing when people say, well, I'm really passionate about writing. And I could make a career out of that. And then now we're saying, no, go work at Boeing. I'm just picking on them because it was the first one I thought of. But like, no, go work this thing and you can write on the side. And where is that idea of like, you should be able to make a living doing something that truly likes you up and allows you to be in meaningful community with people.

0:24:07 (E): Yeah, like, I mean, this push for like professionalization is so like, 

(N): like write handbooks for nine to five and cooked and cleaned, then you can write for passion.

(Mo): Okay, but like, let's also like, what even is professional? What is being professional, right?

Like, what is an expert, right? Like, let's get back into Dr. De Welde’s class.

(Ma): Yeah. 

(Mo): It's like, anytime I hear these words, I'm like, okay, so we're putting this up on a pedestal,

And we’re  giving power to this position or this person. And like, why are we doing that? Who's telling us that this person is quote unquote qualified? What are the qualifications? Why am I not qualified over someone else? Like, and there's privilege to all of that. There's reasons why people are put in positions like that. And reasons why others are left out.

0:25:01 (N): I'm so glad that you said that. So one of the big personal and professional challenges facing right now is that I feel like as a college is attempting to perpetually become, there's a lot of people who would who really do value diversity, equity and inclusion and really want to see the work that's being done continue in some form or another and recognizing it needs to shift, it needs to change, but the core of it to continue to happen. So there's this effort to take DEI people and say, okay, because you all do DEI work, you all go together. And it took me a while to kind of figure out why that felt really bad to me. And it's because it's a devaluing of my area of expertise and feeling like well, diversity is just something kind of anybody could do or anybody can do with each other. And when you think about, you know, the work that, you know, Rochelle Johnson does over at MSPS [Multicultural Student Programs & Services], formerly MSPS, you know, working with students of color, really honing in on issues of retention and access and erased histories and things like that, it is complimentary and definitely important to what I'm doing with LGBTQ students, especially because those identities obviously can intersect. And also the needs and work that we do in mental health spaces around trans identities is unique, maybe to some of the work that I'm doing. And then she and I get together and work together on. So this idea that that DEI is not a real profession or that is not real work and that it can just be removed and that it can just be clumped into something else. I mean, when I first came to CofC, one of the very first town halls I went to, people were asking about the strategic plan and the pillars and they were like, where did diversity go? And President Hsu said, well, don't worry, diversity is woven into everything we do. And I thought, when you feel like something doesn't get to be its own pillar, it allows it to be removed easier. And I think we're seeing that it's easier to remove language around diversity, equity, inclusion, when it's not a pillar of what you were doing. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have been removed, it was a pillar. But that, that kind of devaluing, right? Like, I'm I do liberal arts work and I have a sociology background, and so I'm a social scientist and I work with queer students and all I have to do is be queer to do that or all the people who do DEI could just do it together and, you know, I think that's another piece of that conversation. 

0:27:44 (E): And it's so frustrating too because it's just like, what critical thinking are we doing in any of our classes if we don't have DEI? I mean, truly, like, what's the point? 

(Ma): It's just crazy, honestly. I, there's just not time to cover like all of this because there's genuinely so much to say about it.

(E): We can go on. 

0:28:02 (Ma): I know, yeah. I mean, we kind of touched on it a little bit, but something that

I have been thinking about is kind of how like third spaces are changing to fit in with hustle

culture. So things are based so heavily on like mobile orders and stuff now. And this is not

applicable to a lot of third spaces, but that's just an example. I don't know. What do you guys

have to say about that, I guess?

0:28:25 (N): Oh my gosh. I have to tell you this story. It's just a short story. At my previous institution, I got to be a part of conversations that the president's team cabinet was having with, they were interviewing potential architects to come up with a master plan for like new buildings. So it's very theoretical and it's just, it kind of gives you a strategic vision for like what could a campus look like. And it was so interesting to me to think about how much money we pay people to tell us that students need spaces to sit and be. Because I can't tell you how much of the conversation was just about creating student spaces in places where they had been taking taken away to put offices and it was like put tables outside and people will sit in them. Give us seating in the grass and people will sit there, put up a hammock and someone will lay in it, right? Like and people are making money, so much money to come in and consult and tell folks that that's what we need. And what they're saying is we need third spaces and then it's like then they get to say it and like profit off of it as opposed to all the feminist and queer theorists that have been saying about third spaces for a really long time. 

0:29:45 (E): Buy a hammock, run me my 50k. 

0:29:48 (Mo): I like what you're getting into because it does make me think about the disappearance or at least the illusion of disappearance of third spaces. I will say the physicality and the access to third spaces is changing dramatically right now and a lot of that does have to do with hustle culture and what we're expected to do in our daily lives. And so what you're saying, Mallory, about the Starbucks and the mobile order and them taking away seats, you know, that got me thinking like I have 10 minutes to get to my next class after sitting there for 50

minutes. Then I have 10 minutes. It's like but maybe I have like hurt my foot and I'm going to be

walking slower. Maybe I have to use the bathroom and I got to do all of that. Maybe I need that

coffee or I need some food because maybe my class is span four hours of my day and it's during my lunch and it's like but you know you only have 10 minutes to get it. So I think that's why that mobile ordering is like becoming more prevalent because then it's like oh you know I got to do this in class, disrupt my class and then I have to go like figure out how I'm going to get this and get to my next class in time. And so that's why I think I think like a big difference in third

spaces now is that you have to potentially rent it. Like it's not just available. Public benches and parks, like where is that? I feel like they're going away and that we're just we're building more. We're constantly building and building more and it's like well let's pause for a minute and think about ways in which we interact with our environment and why that's so important and why we shouldn't just be like let's cut down all these trees and like not allow anyone to sit on grass or touch grass ever. 

0:31:40 (N): Oh my gosh I saw something on Instagram today and it was like a meme and it said I hear so many people feel nostalgic about college and they don't realize the last time

they lived in a dense area that was walkable where they could be in community with somebody

in a minute or less. Why don't we just make that the world? We could we just don't we only have it in college. 

0:32:05 (E): As someone who's graduating in May this thought plagues in my mind daily. Yeah like truly because and the reason why we don't have that is because we live in- we live in a society. You know but we live in a society where like all the world cares about is well as like you should work. 

0:32:22 (N): And like when you said about hustle culture- hustle culture such as sham anyway because why can't my one 40 hour a week job pay me a livable wage. I'm hustling on the side because or one job should be enough right? Like it used to be enough to have one job if you had a two person household and now you have both people who need to work and potentially more than one job and we're allowing that as a society. We're also I think like romanticizing hustle work like we're making it attractive like we're creating space for mobile orders we're creating cool apps for it we're giving like this idealism to it like oh anybody can go– you need some extra bucks go door to action. 

(E): It's like a superiority thing too. I mean it's just like yeah I have my nine to five and I have my side gigs like what are you doing? Like um… having fulfilling time with people I love maybe like it's just so it's just like a money obsession in our culture it's just crazy 

0:33:26 (Mo): and we're not even getting into family aspect and family can be whatever you want, right? so family can be the typical heteronormative like nuclear family or we can also like be lumping in other aspects of our identity and like chosen family the idea of these are the people that I am able to care for right so that in and of itself is like another job but we don't credit it as one because we don't get paid for that labor and it's seen as less valuable because we're not contributing or at least it's seen as not contributing to the whole and in reality it is because we are in relation with other folks and we require like upkeep like we all need socialization and and that care because care is so critical and that's what is great about a third space right like how you were talking about discrediting like how it's like oh I'm gonna possibly lump these things together or I'm gonna like simplify it that's what is done to a lot of families too where it's like oh well the nuclear family is so typical and everyone's like supposedly has this nuclear family so everyone is like in the same struggle together and then you're lumped when it's like what if what if like you're a single parent what if what about folks who aren't parents and who are like working like three jobs still just to support themselves and they can't be in relationship with others because relationships can also be treated as exchange like it's definitely like very typical to be like you're out with your friend and you want to buy coffee someone immediately gets out their Venmo I don't have Venmo you right now I'm going to show you the monetary value that I'm putting on our friendship because you can't just like help them later like have you noticed that that we do that where it's like oh you know we can't just be like oh I got you and like this is just how we care for one another it's got to be like right then in their instant gratification monkeys 

0:35:42 (N): and the scarcity idea right like because money is scarce and it feels scarce and if you're not constantly working then it's like building on that fear of scarcity right and so it's like driving that 

0:35:57 (Mo): and then the third spaces that are the rentable spaces now you're having access issues to those third spaces can you even afford to rent a third space and then say you're living in a big city where, you know, there's no grass let's just pretend like there's no grass on the planet anymore right it's all buildings okay because we're killing the planet anyways so there's no grass and now you're in like a 10-story building is there an elevator? like are we going to be able to get to that third space like there's so many things like go into that 

0:36:33 (N): well let's think about if you don't want to touch grass but you want to touch sand and you're in a coastal city and we have privatized the entire coastline. One other thing that I wanted to say about third spaces I was just thinking is oftentimes too there's this white lens put on looking for third spaces and I think of smaller communities especially like ethnic enclaves or communities that have a lack of resources that forces people to come together maybe it's something like a laundromat right and if there's lots of folks in a community all doing their laundry together a laundromat and then there's this like white privilege western society lens on it of like “oh I'm so glad I have my own washer and dryer” and you're missing that that is a community of people right and communities that spend time outside together and see each other as opposed to get in my car go to work come home go back in my house so you know as well-meaning white people sometimes look around and look for ways to quote unquote better certain communities sometimes they're missing third spaces that exist in already existing communities and play really important roles 

(Mo): yeah like that white savior ship of I'm gonna come in I'm gonna give you all your own washer and dryers but then we're missing the point that this is a space where people can have different relationality with others and maybe they don't want their own washer and dryers maybe they do though you know like how about let's ask people 

0:38:11 (N): yeah it's not for you to decide and have you thought about that what

purpose that is serving 

0:38:17 (Ma): okay I have so many things to say 

(E): I love watching you react– this is like my favorite thing ever 

0:38:25 (Ma): okay we're kind of like touching all the points like back and forth multiple times and I think this is awesome I love this entire conversation when we were talking about being able to access and kind of like renting physical spaces it makes me think about how like loitering is and I understand that they're like I understand this to an extent but like some places will not let you in and like they won't let you sit down without paying or buying something 

(N): or use the bathroom 

(E): that's ridiculous 

(Ma): that's an issue for like what if someone has some kind of disability where like they need that and there's like nowhere else to go like that's crazy and I get it to a degree but I think that that's still horrible 

0:39:02 (N): if you're hanging around with nothing to do it must be dangerous bad because you should be busy and you should be doing something that's not this which is resting and being in community 

0:39:14 (Mo): there was this amazing third space in New York okay like listen y'all this was– it was a great bookstore but like the trash can outside was painted with the trans flag like so open queer friendly and they have a sign that says that their bathroom is open to the unhoused and homeless and I was like yes because I also like that's a smaller example of something that maybe I wouldn't have thought about but I'm glad you're bringing it up because like that is so important– where are we going to use the bathroom? Because like obviously we can't shit in the street that's not socially acceptable but like what if I got to shit my pants y'all like I might have to I might have to go now right and let's not even talk about like pregnant bodies in the way that your body transforms and how even that like how your muscles are affected and then we can get into like so many other niches so I won't but like you got to get to the bathroom

0:40:17 (E): yeah and like it's just so like, this whole like, who can and can't be let into the bathroom is a very classist thing because there– I worked at this one place on King Street that is a location typically known for having a free bathroom but I mean basically my boss told me like you can give the bathroom passcode to like anyone but like don't give it to like unhoused people like they told me that specifically and they would always like call the cops on like any unhoused people who like come in for a minute it's like July and downtown Charleston like there's air conditioning why not let someone sit for a minute you know like it's just hmm it's terrible 

0:41:06 (Ma): I have so much to say about this um I think this is just like a prime example of how accommodations and accessibility like benefit everyone; everyone needs to use the bathroom like this is just a prime example and it's it's really easy to get people to understand it that way. I'm kind of gonna like bounce back and forth between a couple different things that we did talk about with the laundromat community and again that was just a random example that made me and I'm not trying to say this in a stereotypical way like the first thing my mind thought of was In The Heights I don't know if that's exactly what I was thinking about okay yeah because I I mean I think it really does illustrate that so well and that's what made that's what I thought of and I just think that it's it's such a really cool concept and then when we were talking about people going in and trying to fix that problem well first of all– do they really consider that a problem? And then also this goes back to our class with [Dr.] De Welde working with people and like sense of collaboration when we're trying to maybe make changes in a community it's not making the decisions for them but it's more so asking them, what do you want? How can we help you reach that goal? or you know, how can we help you achieve this? And it's not making the decisions for them you know you have to work with them yeah like you can't just like invade the space 

0:42:19 (Mo): I would also like to pause right here and like have a slow down and be like let's recognize all the BIPOC communities who have been doing this work before us before we even had this terminology of third space and before we had this care relationality like terms and I just– we cannot necessarily keep saying well this is how it is now and like all of us in here I assume we're white and so we have that that privilege that we then have to recognize of well we haven't had to do this necessarily out of necessity but other folks do have to do this out of necessity and so say you say someone's sick and the medical institution is so harmful especially on black bodies right? So someone is sick and within the black community and they might not be able to afford going to the medical institution they might also just not be comfortable at all so fair right? so then maybe I'm going to take whoever is sick or hurting and I'm going to bring them to someone else's house in the community who might have some sort of knowledge and ways that we can really really practice critical care and reflect on well what does this person need right now and what are they telling me that they need? and like let's figure out ways we can come together and provide that because just the act of like coming into the space where the

person is potentially hurt even that is a third space

0:43:59 (Ma):  thank you for bringing that up I think it it is so important to address our positionality in this and how you know we are all white people and same thing like for me I can only speak for myself like I'm also an able-bodied person well I can only speak so much about these things but yeah thank you for bringing that in that that was very insightful. This is switching gears a little bit but something Mo that you said earlier made me think about third spaces online and transcending physical barriers and this is just kind of about accessibility to third spaces in general I don't really have a question formed for this, but do you want to like say anything about that? Because I think that that's a really interesting part of third spaces 

0:44:36 (N): so we have had, over the past couple of years, a lot of administrative meetings where a conversation will inevitably talk about where are our students and why do they

not come to things in person? And it usually turns to well they're all online and that's bad and

more students than ever are just sitting online and you know there's a real generational gap I think in the feelings about what it means to be online and what you're using online quote-unquote four and actually our director of disability services was very quick to like make the point and continues to make the point [that] online communities are incredibly useful and important to, you know, folks that that's their ability to be in community with one another if they can't access certain physical spaces and you know we talk about especially with queer communities right? Like if you are in an area where you cannot physically be out you can't physically be in community with others, those online spaces are so valuable they bring so much value to people's lives and like are there gross things online? Of course but it's important and you know my son is on the autism spectrum and he has people who he is in community with in online games and okay, it absolutely terrifies me and we do try to do as much oversight as possible but he truly has enjoyment socially in a way that he will never have in person and that's online and that's important and I would hate for him ever to lose that in his life and there's not there right there's this idea of oh online is bad and if you're just making friends with people online for only going online it's like yeah there there's value to being with people in in relation in physical spaces if that's what works for you and for others it doesn't and so I think before we just dismiss online communities and the amount of time that people are spending online I think again right it's the work with people not decide for them 

0:46:42 (Mo): I definitely agree with you Dr. Simmons and it makes me think about the trans community on campus that uses Discord like that is a big online communication system that is heavily used and I can't say I know how to use it I'm not on it but you know that's me but I know that it is super duper helpful for people to make connections in that way and if we get into accessibility again maybe you can't travel maybe there's a third space that people are meeting up at like one of the simple ones I can think of say you have a conference to go to and you you just so want to be there but you can't physically be there so like online let's get a Zoom going like there are other ways to connect that don't have to just be in person although I will say there's so much value in in-person meetings but that doesn't detract from the value that we can get from online communities as long as we are safe about it and I also think it's important for us to realize we can't control what everyone's doing kind of like what you're saying Dr. Simmons this is always going to be like worry there's always going to be something kind of sketchy going on however it's up to that individual who is then putting themselves in this online space to interact and to make their own choices and have that autonomy 

0:48:06 (Ma): alright well we're running out of time I'm not trying to cut this short. Any last thoughts before we wrap up?

0:48:11 (N): yeah I love this conversation I'm really excited for more people to keep having conversations like this I think in the political climate that we are in right now folks are finding their voice or trying to find their voices in in new ways and it's really going to be important to be able to recognize what is being used against you and what is when people try to take certain things from you– why? And when we talk about you know third spaces and especially for students like gathering spaces- where are those? How do you protect those? How do you show others how to use them as well? Because I think back to the point about like if you're not constantly doing something that some that you know people are judging you; how do we exist within an institution that has that expectation? And also safeguard those third spaces that students are carving out for themselves. And who who are your allies faculty or staff that can help you keep those push back and protect those? And how can you do it yourself? I think sometimes students don't realize like how much their voices matter and how much power they have and I just hope that folks are really thinking about that and knowing that and if you're listening to something like this and being like oh yeah like I like what you said oh yeah

I think about the third space or oh yeah that's a third space and I'm in then how do you protect it

how do you keep it special how do you make sure that others can access it? I think those are all

like really important takeaways from having a conversation like this

0:49:53 (Mo): I do want to add when you talk about protection that doesn't mean like exclusionary 

(N): right 

(Mo): so like make sure we still invite people in because that's a good way to keep the spaces if more people know about it if it's utilized by others and obviously you want those spaces to feel very safe and comfortable because they can be vulnerable so yes there is the level of like okay who do we want to invite into this space? right but it's so important that people recognize that these spaces can be open 

0:50:27 (N): yeah I like the the idea of a safe enough place to be brave because you can't guarantee safety in any space and having that transparency and that honesty I think is important to community building and to say I can't promise your safety in this space but I promise you that I'm doing everything to make sure that this place is safe enough for you to be brave and to be in community in a way that makes a lot of sense for you and affirms your identity whatever that may be 

0:50:55 (Ma): thank you both so much for being here this was an amazing conversation I loved it so much this was so fun 

(N): this was really fun, thank you for having me

(E): I love talking to you guys like truly 

(N): I know I feel like we could talk for like hours

(E): I know 

(Ma): I know yeah I think that we covered a lot of really good topics of course there will never be enough time to talk about all of this but I think 

(E): I cab’t believe an hour went by 

0:51:19 (Ma): I know yeah but thank you both so much for being here taking the time to sit with us and talk to us about these really awesome and very important things 

(E, N, Mo): thank you 

0:51:28 (E): thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of What IFF? and thank you to both of our guests Dr. Naomi Simmons and Mo Spragins for being a part of this conversation and talking with us about the importance of third spaces within communit.

(Ma): To support the campus Pride Center visit give.cofc.edu/pride-center. I'd like to thank our

site supervisor Aaisha Haykal and the director of the Women's and Gender Studies department

Dr. Lauren Ravalico for all their time and help towards this. I'm your host Mallory Mason 

(E): and I'm your host Emily Currey and thank you so much for listening

0:52:00 [outro music]